Geoff Sebesta ([info]megatexas) wrote,
@ 2009-05-13 12:17:00
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torture
There's gonna be a lot more torture photographs released soon. This is going to be bad.

It wasn't just Abu Ghraib. We've all known for years and soon there will be proof that we cannot deny.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; George Bush is going to jail. Nobody believes me, but it's curious why -- because nobody believes they will bring him to trial, and if they do they think Obama will pardon him. Haven't met anybody yet who thinks he's innocent.

Well, I think he's going to jail. He's not in trouble with America, folks. He's in trouble with the ICC. And the ICC is looking for the biggest fish they can possibly fry. He and his crew are in trouble because they violated the Geneva Convention, and that's a level of trouble that we couldn't help him out of, even if we wanted to. The Constitution is pretty clear -- the president does not have the right to abrogate treaties.

This wouldn't matter if America wanted to defend Bush, then Obama would really do an end-run around the law and Bush would go free. But nobody wants to defend this guy. And in a week he'll have fewer friends then ever.

It's not going to be a matter of American law.

So that's one mistake the Republicans make here. Another is to believe that since the country voted Democratic, that we hold our leaders in such superstitious awe that we will bury this story to protect them. Not so. Two reasons:

1) We the people do not really owe that big a debt to the old-school Democrats; they're the spineless twits that let Bush run over them in the first place. I wouldn't exactly call Pelosi a hero.

2) Even if we did, we wouldn't care. Torture is a war crime and war criminals belong in prison. Period. Until we find a way to use modern psychology and fix their broken brains, prison. It's not even a question. If Pelosi authorized torture, she should have the next cell down from Cheney and Gonzales. It doesn't matter who. Nobody cares who. If Obama, Santa Claus, and the Virgin Mary signed off on torture policy, they should rot in the Hague for all time.

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[info]blueskycomic
2009-05-13 07:52 pm UTC (link)
I hope you're right but at this point I've pretty much lost faith that anyone in a position to do anything WILL do anything.

It has been fun watching Cheney run around and try to convince everyone that an investigation into his actions is a bad thing for the country. Oh, Dick... how you live up to your name.

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[info]megatexas
2009-05-14 04:53 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I agree. Keep diggin, Dick! Your jaw makes a great shovel.

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[info]foxhack
2009-05-13 09:19 pm UTC (link)
As a non-American, I can tell you with absolute certainty that Bush and company will not be touched. Ever.

But we sure as hell wish they'd get tried for war crimes.

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[info]megatexas
2009-05-14 04:56 am UTC (link)
Although I agree that all evidence and tradition agree with you, and that putting Bush in jail would be a cultural achievement on a par with putting a man on the moon, I still believe that it is possible, and that the time has never been better. Si se pueda!

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[info]foxhack
2009-05-14 05:10 am UTC (link)
There's a much larger change of him being murdered and martyred than him going to trial.

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[info]megatexas
2009-05-14 05:12 am UTC (link)
All his historical analogues (McKinley and Garfield frex) were assassinated in office -- I consider it a dubious human accomplishment that he's survived this long. We the people have finally figured out that murdering monsters only gives free rein to the worse monsters behind them.

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[info]vapni
2009-05-13 10:12 pm UTC (link)
Also, International treaties dictate that torture "allegations" must be investigated. SOMEONE will have to be the fall guy. Shrubbo won't be him. I wish it was Cheney!

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[info]megatexas
2009-05-14 05:05 am UTC (link)
The thing is Shrubbo is the fall guy for Cheney...

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[info]vapni
2009-05-14 10:05 pm UTC (link)
Aint it ttha Truth. Coming up Next-- A special unauthorized peek at Someones Twitter!

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[info]the_eleven
2009-05-14 02:34 am UTC (link)
That would be awesome. I hope that Spanish guy who nailed Peron gets to put the lot of them away ^^

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[info]megatexas
2009-05-14 05:09 am UTC (link)
This is close to my point -- the ICC has been sharpening their knives for some time now, looking for a big fish. They got cheated out of Hussein, Milosovic "had a heart attack," and Bush is just ripe for the pluckin'. They got him cold on security cameras from a hundred angles and they know America won't twitch an eyelash to defend him. A good Bush prosecution could finally give them some much-needed credibility. It's a Marbury v. Madison situation (if I remember my history properly) -- it's a rare circumstance where a court can actually vote itself power.

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[info]darkeyedradical
2009-05-14 02:40 am UTC (link)
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/05/here-are-few-of-torture-photos-obama.html

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[info]megatexas
2009-05-14 05:13 am UTC (link)
They get a lot worse than that.

It's been an open secret for some time now that the worst bit of Abu Ghraib was the homosexual rape of young boys as their mothers were forced to watch. To anyone reading this, if you didn't know I'm sorry to tell you that it's true. I'm pretty sure you knew about this already, Charles.

Anyway, these new photos will prove that the problem was not contained, but systemic. That's about all they'll prove.

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[info]karmadrome
2009-05-14 06:33 pm UTC (link)
I live in hope. I'm not a big fan of retribution, but I think we, as a nation, would be well served by making a public statement that these torturers do not represent our beliefs and that we will not stand for it.

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[info]megatexas
2009-05-14 07:13 pm UTC (link)
It's not really about retribution as it is symbolism. We need to repudiate the Bush years and devote ourselves to international law as completely as we can. I am almost never in favor of punishing someone simply as an example, but this is truly an exceptional circumstance.

The prisons are there for the protection of the population, not punishment. I'm not really into punishment -- it's a blunt instrument, and does not seem to accomplish as much as other methods. I would much rather see Bush and Cheney get the help they need. But the way you'd know that they were truly rehabilitated would be if they killed themselves in shame.

That's why I can see why people would support the death penalty in the case of pure, undeniable evil. If the only possible outcome of their rehabilitation would be seppuku, why should the taxpayer pay for this? So I can see why people would want the death penalty for Bush and Cheney.

After thinking about it, I opt for prison. I think it's more important to keep them around as symbols of their pathetic failure than it is to string them up as symbols of justice. I think the world has been better served by keeping Charles Manson around as a symbol of fail, and I'd like to do the same favor for Cheney.

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[info]blueskycomic
2009-05-16 11:07 am UTC (link)
I think that's one of the problems with how people view this: a lot of people think this is about retribution. It's not.

This is about the law, and if it had been a Democrat I had wholeheartedly supported and backed and he did this stuff I would be up in arms and expecting justice to be served.

Unfortunately a lot of people ignore that whole "legality" stuff and jump up and down about how this is merely politics and nothing more (*cough*RUSH*cough*).

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[info]karmadrome
2009-05-16 11:35 am UTC (link)
Heh. Mr. Limbaugh slid into self-parody a long time ago.

Sure, it's about the law, but...what is the purpose of the law? Is it retribution, or rehabilitation, or..."justice"? That's a question I struggle with at times.

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[info]megatexas
2009-05-16 11:38 am UTC (link)
The law is there to protect smart people from dumb people.

Rich people get in because they can hire smart people. But it's fundamentally about tricking dumb people into not beating us up and taking our shit.

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[info]blueskycomic
2009-05-16 11:51 am UTC (link)
Oooh, is that like "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it" brain teasers?

That's going to be in my head all day now. :)

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